In November this year, Rough Trade, in collaboration with Marshall Group, hosted an evening of discussion focused on a topic that has increasingly captured the attention of an industry grappling with widespread challenges and shortcomings in the representation and treatment of women and non-binary individuals.
In January of 2024, a report was published by the Women and Equalities Committee that gave detailed evidence submitted by women, organisations and experts from across the sector. The Misogyny in Music report's findings called for urgent action to address the ‘endemic’ misogyny in the industry, including shocking levels of sexual harassment and abuse.
Following the publication, Rough Trade held a roundtable meeting inviting our staff to talk about the findings of the report, exchange experiences and have an open discussion about what we as a company can do to actively ensure women and non-binary people feel valued and heard. The meeting provided valuable insights into ways we can drive meaningful change and challenge outdated perceptions of record stores and the music industry hierarchy.
In April the government responded to the recommendations in the report and sadly rejected advice to amend the Equality Act and introduce new legislation. This decision denies additional, crucial protections that could better support and safeguard women from harmful and sometimes dangerous discrimination.
In the autumn, Rough Trade and Marshall put together a special panel to host the first in what we hope will be a series of talks on important industry topics. This debut edition held at Rough Trade East was driven by the report, Rough Trade's roundtable meeting and our joint commitment with Marshall to nurturing and supporting the next generation of music industry professionals.
Below, you can read excerpts from the evening's transcript exploring representation gaps, systemic issues, education, awareness and community building.
Panel
Meg Devereux
Education and Community Specialist at Marshall Group
Annie Dorrett
Lead Singer of CLT DRP and Promoter at Brighton's Hope & Ruin
PEACH
Artist, Radio DJ and Content Creator
Stephanie Phillips
Journalist, Author and member of Big Joanie
Isabelle Swift
Label Coordinator at Marshall Records
Emily Waller
Head of Brand and Content at Rough Trade
"There are a lot of stereotypes around who is allowed to play what instrument and if I wanted to put myself out there and give something a go, I felt like I was held up to a higher standard than my male counterparts."
Meg: Hello, everyone, how are we doing? This is obviously a really, really important topic and I appreciate you joining us tonight because you're either someone that experiences misogyny in music, or you're someone that wants to learn more. Either way, it's great that you are here as we need to keep discussing these things and finding solutions together. Disclaimer, this is a safe space and I'm not sure what we're going to get into today, but that's the beauty of these kinds of panels, we can really open the discussion up. I'm going to start with a heavy hitter and get straight into it: how has misogyny in the music industry personally affected each of you?
Stephanie: For me and for my band Big Joanie, there's always the double layer of misogyny and race. And the fact that the music industry is predominantly dominated by white, middle class men, and then if it isn't white middle class men, it's white middle class women. So there is kind of like this double layer of this huge level of misogyny, but the women that do get in often don't look like me. And sometimes we're not advocating for women that look like me. But I will say that I feel like things are slowly changing. I got involved in music through the DIY punk scene rather than the music industry and that scene always felt very feminist and very radical. In terms of dealing with misogyny, there was a lot of radical thought, but once we saw the music industry and got involved with that in a more business sense, it did feel like things were backwards. There were a lot of blockades in terms of just being able to advocate for ourselves and get the same kind of privileges and rights that any other band would get if they were white men doing what we were doing.
Emily: While I've been working in music for nearly 15 years now, I have to say I've been very lucky in that I haven't experienced a lot of direct misogyny aimed personally at me. But have I witnessed it, or been at a disadvantage over those years as a result of the systemic misogyny that we all experience and know exists? Absolutely. I would also say that, you know, 10-15 years ago, there weren't signs plastered on the walls of workplaces calling out anti-harassment policies and projecting the idea that you should be actively looking out for these things. There wasn't social media in the way that there is now, Instagram with hundreds of collectives or groups that advocate for these issues that are very visible. I don't think you have to go looking too deeply to be fed that. Years ago, I worked for a large entertainment company and the person who was the head of my division was a woman. At the time, I didn't particularly warm to her, she used to power dress and I found her intimidating. She would come to work every day in an exclusive wardrobe of tailored skirts or dresses and towering heels. And that was quite off-putting to me at the time. But now I look at it and I think, was she dressing for the patriarchy? It's kind of terrible that I question that, but I look at it and I think, well, she was definitely operating in a man's world, and maybe she had to heighten herself through how she dressed. Maybe that wasn't just her expressing her personal style, maybe it was to say "I have a place here and I can do what these men are doing just as well."
Isabelle: Luckily for me too, I don't think I've come across any blatant misogyny aimed directly at me. But I do think misogyny comes along, unfortunately, with other types of discrimination. A lot of the time I bear the brunt of ageism. I'm only 24, so a lot of people think I'm a child. I think I'd say it is more like the day to day, maybe more of an unconscious misogyny where you're side-stepped. I've had people ask men the same question that I've just answered. But I'm paid to be here, my opinion is valid!
Annie: Where do I start? I mean, despite misogyny being something we all deal with as a femme-presenting person or as a woman in our everyday lives, in the music industry I find the hardest part (whether it's being a musician or working in a grassroots venue), is the emotional labour that goes into every single day of worrying about whether or not I'm making up a microaggression, or making up someone being misogynistic to me or my colleague. And then I feel like my work day is ten times harder because I've had someone say something to me that's patronising, or rude, or sexist, or harassing. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, well, you know, was that just a funny comment? Am I overreacting? And then my male counterparts don't have the same work day because I'm dealing with that, or we're dealing with that. And that's frustrating. And, you know, managing that is really difficult when you're trying to get through your day and work as hard as everyone else.
PEACH: I feel like I've experienced way too much, guys. I think before we have any kind of discussion about misogyny in the industry itself, we have to open the floor to have a wider discussion about misogyny in general and how that really affects women. And like Meg said, gender non-conforming people their ability to access opportunities. I think for me, I found it quite hard to even get my foot into the industry. I felt this real internal push-pull, it was honestly really difficult. There are a lot of stereotypes around who is allowed to play what instrument and if I wanted to put myself out there and give something a go, I felt like I was held up to a higher standard than my male counterparts. I was looked down upon. It is very disheartening. Since then, I've been pushing through and trying to make a name for myself in a space where I increasingly notice how underrepresented women and non-binary people are. And that's not just in terms of artists, but also producers and songwriters. It's really affected my creative output because up until the last few months, I've only had sessions with cis white, straight men sat at a desk. For me as a songwriter, it's such a spiritual experience and it's something that you really need to be vulnerable in and give all of you to. There's been so many different occasions where I have felt like I haven't been able to show up as my full self. Maybe it hasn't been a safe space or it just hasn't felt like one. So I think it's important that we continue to have these conversations because we all deserve the opportunity to be heard and to tell our stories openly.
Meg: Something you said there PEACH, about how women are expected to play or not play a certain instrument... We've had barriers in place for so many generations of female musicians and it's still happening. Things are slowly getting better, of course, but for example in interviews, if there's a female guitarist, they're being asked about what it feels like to be a female guitarist. Why does it matter? They're a guitarist.
"I could easily have experienced misogyny that I just don't remember because I didn't understand what it looked like... This report exposes it and should make us more aware of the many different forms it can take."
Meg: So this panel was actually inspired by something that Emily brought to me when we were looking at organising a series of talks together. She started speaking about the the UK government's Misogyny in Music report and the findings from that, and how we might take that, run with it and maybe find solutions. Emily, how much of a cultural shift do you think that report is going to have, if any?
Emily: When you dig into the report, the scope and the ambition behind what they found and fed back on is huge. It covers so many sectors and sub-sectors of this industry and details just how ingrained misogyny is within it. The overwhelming feedback on this report was that misogyny is endemic which is, you know, pretty much crisis level. Unfortunately the Conservative government at the time rejected to take any action that was recommended by this report, which to your question: I think it had the potential to have a lot more impact than it has had, but because of the blocker made by the government to refrain from implementing further vital policy, we're now a bit stuck. However, I think the fact that this report is out there should empower institutions and employers and education outlets to think about how they operate and what they can draw from the report that will help them reflect on their own culture. It should assist in encouraging employers to empower their own staff to look out for and call out bad behaviours, or put in place more safeguarding measures. But this isn't just about telling women what they already know, it's also about educating men, because if everybody's looking out for it, the more women can be protected from it. Going back to what I was talking about about during some early employment, I think a lot of the things that I reflect on now are because I just didn't have the tools at the time to even comprehend what could have been going on right in font of me. I could easily have experienced misogyny that I just don't remember because I didn't understand what it looked like and I'm sure that's true for a lot of people over the years. This report exposes it and should make us more aware of the many different forms it can take. In that sense it is really powerful.
"...creating a team around you that you want to exist in will be more beneficial in the long run. You don't need men to make it."
Meg: We're talking a lot about about how we've experienced misogyny within the industry and in our respective roles, but Steph, I kind of want to direct this one to you. Let's let's try and give some advice to the younger generation, the young women or non-binary people that are trying to come into the industry. What kind of advice would you give them in today's landscape?
Stephanie: I feel like I came to all of this from such a different angle that I would say, don't aim for the music industry. Like I said, I started off in the DIY/underground punk scene and I was working as a music journalist and freelancing. When I was making music, I didn't think about anything business-wise, because it just seemed like such a faraway world. I feel like that period was growing time that was really important and allowed us to establish the groundwork that's helped us keep going - our politics and our frame of mind. We learned that this is a black feminist punk band and that is the driving force. We work with a majority of women, there's only a few men at our label and one of our managers is a man. I think we've naturally been able to do that just by putting out our message and the right people have been drawn to us. It's also about not accepting other people telling you the "way that things are done." You don't need some man that thinks that they know everything about everything to show you the way. The industry is super backwards and mostly only respects a certain type of person, but that person can be a very bolshy woman, and they do the job just as well. So I would say don't only listen to what other people say. They're usually wrong.
Meg: You're right, there's such pressure for young musicians to get into that machine, start making money, meet the right people. But before any of that, it's important to have safe people around you. And I think that's what you're saying, Steph, is you get to choose your team and it might take a little longer, but at least you're safe.
Stephanie: It'll take a little bit longer, but it'll be worth it because you'll have more experience and you won't get taken advantage of, which is really important. And also you'll be more established in your writing, your frame of mind and your understanding of yourself as an artist. I think that thinking about it as a life goal that shapes who you want to be, rather than something that is shaping your career for the next year or two is important. You could go for the career angle, get on a label and get everything you think you need and they could drop you tomorrow and take all your money. Then you're left with nothing. Whereas creating a team around you that you want to exist in will be more beneficial in the long run. You don't need men to make it.
Meg: Couldn't agree more. Touching on choosing your team and your support network... Isabelle, how can record labels and artist management better support female artists?
Isabelle: As a label, ultimately we have the power to sign who we want to sign and importantly for us, we don't want to sign artists that don't align with the standards we hold ourselves to. I think that is one of the most important things that we can do. And also, just having better representation, employing women in managerial positions within labels and management companies is so vital. If the label is just full of men, representation on both sides is inevitably going to fall down.
"It's much, much easier to sell some white lads with guitars and it's also much easier to sell a middle class white woman who has a particular look."
Meg: Musicians on the on the panel, what have your experiences with record labels and management been like?
Stephanie: I think we're just a hard sell. We're Black women making punk music, and we're in our 30s. It's not like we're not pop stars, you know? I think most people like the concept of us and they like the music, we've generally got good reception, but we've never really got that "big". I remember pre-pandemic, we were touring and playing a festival and Dry Cleaning had just started and they were playing ahead of us. We were like, oh, this is a cute new band! Then like a year later they got the 4AD deal and they just blew up. And they're an amazing band, but it's about what is sellable in the UK market. It's much, much easier to sell some white lads with guitars and it's also much easier to sell a middle class white woman who has a particular look. So that's kind of the same repetitive notion, that's the methodology that people go by and that I see. So yeah, from labels and management we've had a lot of rejection, but we also have people that really do want to work with us. I've spoken to Black artists who are doing alternative music as well and they have the same feeling that, you know, you're generally kind of accepted within the industry, but no one really wants to put the money behind you. So we have people that are interested in working with us, but you're not getting the same funding that The Last Dinner Party are getting or whatever. And that is all about who they know will make money.
Emily: Marketing has a lot to answer for... Sales and promotional teams often base their projections and budgets on what's sold or what will sell. Misogyny and racism are systemic. More money is invested in white men, white men then sell more units, even more money is then plugged into selling even more white men. It is cyclical. It results in less diversity and less exposure for women and minorities across the board.
"I think there's a real culture of silence and that is a huge problem. Often we're also not acknowledging that women's issues are literally seen as women's issues. It's up to us to solve it."
Meg: Annie, what support systems do you think are essential for women in the industry at the moment?
Annie: Ok, I'm just going to start my train of thought here. I guess when I think of support systems, I think about why I need the support systems. I think about how many times people have been subjected to harassment, the microaggressions they've experienced, or the patronisation and the belittlement they've been subjected to. The thing that's really hard is, if one of these instances occurs, who do I talk to? And a lot of these grassroots venues aren't equipped like bigger venues are. There's no human resources, there's no safeguarding, there's hardly any policies in place. And for me that's the hardest bit. I'm lucky enough to have a female manager and a female booking agent, my band's obviously supportive and I've got a lot of really good musicians that are friends. But when it comes to actually making a record of something, there's not a lot of people to speak to. So I think there's a real culture of silence and that is a huge problem. Often we're also not acknowledging that women's issues are literally seen as women's issues. It's up to us to solve it. But there should be men in the room to have these conversations with us. I really feel like it falls on us to do this emotional labour to do this work. We've had people older than us go through the same things, but we're still dealing with it. I know things have gotten better, but we're having the same conversations, essentially. I've gone on a tangent, but I guess my point is to look at accountability and how we actually figure these things out thoroughly. A different example from an artist point of view is funding applications. There's a lot of places you can apply for funding, but they're actually not that accessible. Sometimes it's actually really hard to write those applications and if you don't have good literature and grammar, or don't have education behind you, it's very tough to sell yourself. No-one ever taught me how to be a musician or do the business side. Knowledge is power and a lack of it makes you vulnerable. So yeah, it would be good if more women could have access to resources to support that side of things.
Meg: Emily, I want to bring it back to to the report. What policies do you think you'd like to see come into place to support women in music moving forward, based on the findings?
Emily: All of the ones they suggested that were then rejected, ideally! But we don't live in an ideal world. One of the things they suggested which I thought was really smart was that when venues are applying for funding, they should be assessed for their safeguarding policies before any funding is awarded. That way, you are ensuring that the places that are being invested in and that are growing are safe spaces for people of all genders and backgrounds. I don't believe that is something that is currently enforced and wasn't sadly green lit post-report. But really, the key is education. It should be mandatory that young boys are taught about misogyny, what it means, what it looks like and the impact that it can have on the women in their life. That's really where it all starts. And then beyond that, higher education institutions and employers should all be making sure that they're putting in preventative measures and educating their students and staff about what this does to people and what it looks like. All genders have a responsibility for this. Let's implement policies that create real awareness and help instigate change. Otherwise we're just going round in circles.
Meg: You're so right. Education. We need to tackle misogyny in general and it's a widespread responsibility.
Emily: Earlier we were talking about gendered instruments and I think the same can be said of gendered roles. You might say that my limited experience of direct misogyny is indicative of the fact that I'm in marketing. Traditionally a lot of women work in marketing, whereas sectors like sales or distribution are often heavily male. Education centres and the music industry need to create better career pathways to ensure different roles are accessible, that women can choose to become a sound engineer or a tour manager. One of my colleagues kindly shared an experience with me that sometimes when she is receiving a visiting band on site, they arrive with a male tour manager who fully expects to be greeted by another man. Often her experience isn't validated until it has been backed up by a male colleague. And the male tour manager can sometimes be visibly uncomfortable working with a woman in this environment, because there's this distrust that a woman can't possibly know what they're doing in this field. It sounds wild when you say it out loud, but it happens.
Meg: There's an organisation called MeloCompass who I started following maybe 3 or 4 months ago and they regularly put up opportunities. It's very much directed at women, non-binary and young people, fostering a community and communicating jobs that are coming up in the industry. That's a really interesting one to check out if anyone's looking to get into music. They are just one example, but how can we broaden that and get everyone else on board to start thinking more openly about access for women and non-binary people.
Meg: PEACH, in what ways has social media both helped and hindered the conversation around misogyny in music?
PEACH: It's helped massively because everybody has a platform now. Everybody has the opportunity to make a quick video and put it out and it's really helped to start those important conversations. The comment threads on TikTok, of people sharing their experiences and creating community... sharing those spaces to, you know, have those forums for a conversation. But I think that's kind of where it might start and finish. Just because there are conversations happening, doesn't necessarily mean that systemic change is following that. I think there's a bit of an illusion that because we are more aware of it, the daily experiences of women and non-binary people are getting better. I mean, I feel like I'm saying the same thing all the time. Of course we need to keep having these conversations, but we also need to crack down on this. Going back to what Emily was talking about: education, education, education. We need to ingrain in our culture, not only talking about it, but teaching kids how to not perpetrate it. We're teaching them how to be better, we're teaching them how to be nicer, kinder. We're teaching them what they can do if they experience that and where they go. And knowing that when they do tell someone that they've experienced something, that it's going to be taken seriously. We shouldn't be sugarcoating it - this is impacting people, their lives, their careers, their relationships with themselves, their relationships with other people. So it's a topic that deserves to be to be given a platform and from that perspective, I'm very grateful to have social media.
"while not all men are misogynistic, all men have a responsibility to acknowledge that misogyny exists"
Meg: What do you think the next steps are for the music industry to tackle misogyny, to actually spread awareness, educate and make meaningful change?
PEACH: Accountability would be really lovely. Consequences for men that are overstepping their boundaries professionally and abusing power, abusing their positions of power. And that's what it is. When you're in a room as an artist and you're making music, it's such a vulnerable place. You're really kind of shedding your skin right there and you need to be surrounded by people who can help you in that rather than take advantage of it. There needs to be some kind of protocol regarding where we get the support and how we talk about it. And I think that's what's lacking at the moment, an action plan. There's perhaps a bit of a cloud around it at the moment, but let's put it in place. Let's do it.
Emily: I think having more women in senior roles so they can have greater influence and a greater empathy for what their peers may or do experience is key. One of the things we've done at Rough Trade is gone through the whole report and identify all the bits that are relevant to how we work here. We then held a roundtable discussion with all the women who wanted to attend from across the company and talked about the report, the findings as well as our own experiences within the workplace. And I think that really helped to affirm what we all felt or understood. As a company, we wanted to discuss it, take the opportunity to improve things and encourage staff to feel confident in coming forward if they wanted to report or discuss an issue. And I suppose the next step we should look at is widening that conversation to the men in our company. Because while not all men are misogynistic, all men have a responsibility to acknowledge that misogyny exists and call it out if they see it. If other companies can use the report as a jumping off point to encourage these discussions internally then I think they will learn a lot. There's a lot I didn't know eight months ago that I do now and some of it is shocking stuff.
Annie: Yeah I think like touching on that as well, this might sound a bit fluffy, but the way we consume music and talk about femininity, what femininity means and why do we hate it so much as people? Having intergenerational conversations between people who have been through the same things and people younger than us who are still going through it. I feel like sometimes there's a real battle between different ages, especially with women, because we've all been through the same thing and we're all mad about it, but we've compacted it in different ways. Older generations have maybe buried it, young people are perhaps overly critical because there's so much noise online. It would be really amazing to sit at a big table with different women and different gender non-conforming people and experience and talk about femininity, not just the bad things that bring us together as women, but the joyous things and what that looks like. I think that's really important.
Stephanie: A great thing that a lot of young women artists can do is empower themselves to learn the tools of the trade, so you know how to market your own release, or self-release your own album, or be your own manager. When you enter the industry, you then know how to find the person that's doing the right job and the person that's just saying they can do the right job. That's one of the most important things to learn, that you don't need to rely on other people. It is powerful to know you're running a business, even though it doesn't feel like it. And you are the boss. Often it feels like the people that you're employing are the people that are running the show, but in reality, you're the one running the show and so having that self-belief is key. If we have this, hopefully it helps to make better decisions and empower others to kind push forward in the industry, in turn bringing more people and more women and marginalised people of colour into the industry as well.
Isabelle: We need to just have more women in the room. Sometimes just that one friendly face can give you the confidence to speak up and talk, instead of hiding away. It's really hard to stand up for yourself in a room full of men sometimes.
Useful Resources
Misogyny in Music report
Musician's Union
Help Musicians UK
Music Support
Women In Music
MeloCompass
Route
shesaid.so
Girls Rock London
Girl Grind UK
Well, do you adore me?
Am I everything you wanted now?
Or am I everything you despise?
Adore Adore Adore, SPRINTS
